But I don’t see why traditional weight training and core body training are not beneficial to pitching. I am not sure about the Kinetic link but what I do understand is that injuries do happen often as a result of poor conditioning which weight and core training could prevent. I am torn between Dr. Marshalls approach to this and tradition training. I think Iron balls and wrist weights make sense but I also think like Kyle that heavy weights would not be beneficial to pitch velocities.

Roger, you lied. You said Kyle said something he did not say, that iron balls and wrist weights have no value, and stupidly, you said it on his website.

Inflammatory comments are things like, “you do not know exercise science like you claim.” Baseless assertions without any evidence, often including personal attacks.

I would argue that you are the one who doesn’t understand exercise science. You claimed earlier that weight training does not help pitching because it is not specific. Not only does weight training help, throwing a football helps, yoga helps, ballet and dancing helps. There are two forces at work: Coordination and strength, and while Marshall’s exercise could be a great one because it increases both of these at once, an exercise that simply “isn’t specific” doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a positive impact. Why do pitchers run? Why even throw iron balls? Why would the best training not be the “most specific” one: Pitching. The answer is obvious, and even you have to use it to justify the use of iron balls and wrist weights.

You claim kyle has never seen a Marshall pitcher throw an iron ball (this is a lie), you say the experts aren’t the experts because they never won a Cy young award; I’d challenge you to find fault in Dr. Glen Fleisig’s mechanical analyses. Dr Marshall himself never won a Cy young award using his invented mechanics, and more importantly, no one ever has. If you want to claim there is a conspiracy, winning in the MLB is not evidence for you. If you want to claim winning in the MLB is evidence for the effectiveness of a motion, then why has Marshall’s motion never been so vindicated?

You make the claim that the kinetic chain doesn’t exist: There is evidence for it, and if you want to make claims like this again I suggest you refute my evidence.

http://math.arizona.edu/~goriely/Papers/2003-PhysD(whip-waves).pdf

This link leads to an explanation of the concept of kinetic linking, along with evidence for how and why it works. If you once again fill this page with lies and baseless assertions, I will assume that you cannot refute the actual mathematical evidence for kinetic linking.

In fact, kinetic linking occurs in Marshall’s motion and hundreds of other exercise activities. The velocity generated in the shoulder and elbow that travels into the hand and the ball is an example.

Do not act like you’re a victim, and do not whine. I expect you to back up your claims with some evidence and stop lying.

but you do come off a little brush. Every thing that someones says you don’t agree with you take it as an insult to your intelligence. You also clearly have a reputation on other sites so I will not speak on that.

I never said "You said Kyle said something he did not say, that iron balls and wrist weights have no value, and stupidly, you said it on his website"

“The iron/lead balls train/strengthen the muscles that accelerate the pitching arm. Kyle has said that he thinks they are dangerous I believe. He is wrong. He does not know exercise science like he claims to.”

This is the second time you have been quoted, and you have not gone back on this quote. This quote is a lie, you said it, therefore you are a liar.

“Here are a few things wrong with Fleisig though, 1. He thinks that the hand only moves 50 mph when a 90 mph baseball is thrown. 2. He thinks UCL ruptures occur because of inward rotation of the shoulder joint.”

These are BASELESS ASSERTIONS and I want to see WHERE you got them from. If you cannot prove that Fleisig said these things, then you are LYING. Fleisig, to my knowledge is not foolish enough to claim that an object accelerating another object to 90 mph could be moving only 50 mph because that is AGAINST THE LAWS OF PHYSICS. Once again, you are claiming that Glenn Fleisig said these things, I want you to prove it.

“Tradtional pitchers DO NOT use the kinetic chain, or link or whatever you want to call it.”

The kinetic link is a biomechanical term that describes a physically observed phenomenon whereby one end of a physical body is accelerated to a high velocity by the condensation of kinetic energy from the opposite end of the object, through a tapering, to that end. I have already challenged you to dispute the math and science behind this fact. You have chosen not to. Instead you simply claim the above. I will change my question to accommodate you: How is it that the laws of physics that apply to kinetic linking in whips and other objects do not apply to the body of a pitcher? Because you have not debated the validity of kinetic linking as a physical law, you are asserting that it does not apply to pitchers? How does it not? Does a pitcher not accelerate from the legs to the waist into the shoulder, elbow, and finally wrist and hand? Explain why not and be specific. Back up your assertions with evidence.

“Baseless assertions without any evdience??? He doesnt have any kind of degree in anything science related? How is that baseless? Just for discussions sake, what kind of background do you have? Do you have a degree in anything science related? Did you play baseball at a high level?”

Kyle’s authority is derived from your last point, coaching and playing baseball. My authority stems from my degrees in physics and medicine, and I am a medical professional. What are your qualifications? If you are not a scientific authority, and you aren’t a coach, and you’re JUST a player who learned directly from Marshall, that is NOT a qualification. More importantly, why is it that, unlike me, you have not brought in anyone with any authority? I’ve cited scientific sources. You are making baseless claims. If you want to cite Mike Marshall, I want a quote and a website link. If pitchers don’t use kinetic chaining as “everyone thinks they do,” how do they use it? Give me a website link or a scientific study instead of simply asserting that it’s not as we think it works. Please, explain the laws of physics to me.

You have never seen a Marshall pitcher throw an iron ball.

How about these publicly available videos that refute your baseless assertions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq-X9ZiqUHo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW2XQex8Ipk

“I thought people would at least have to listen to what I have to say, since I was good enough to play professional baseball. And I got injured and I was told that only surgery would "fix" the problem. I discoverd Mike Marshall’s stuff and did his program. I know it works, why? Because I use it. I can tell you that I throw better quality pitches and can now throw everyday without pain.”

That is fine, however that is anecdotal evidence and is not falsifiable.

“But no one would believe word one of what I had to say, in fact most ridiculed me and told me I was full of it. So Im sick of being nice with these people who 1. most likely never even played baseball at a high level, and 2. havent even tried this stuff for themselves, they just dismiss it.”

Playing baseball at a high level is not evidence that you understand biomechanics, case in point: Mark Prior. Playing baseball at a high level is not evidence that you know your ass from your elbow, case in point: Jose Canseco.

We are not dismissing Marshall’s theories out of hand. Both Kyle and I have been accommodating to the likelihood that Marshall is definitely on to something regarding his training. E5 has been very receptive, and I’d say that this is not a site where you have simply been ridiculed for a set of ideas that had merit. Personally, I reacted to some of your writing with hostility because you did give distortions as facts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW2XQex8Ipk

It’s disingenuous for you to simply assert that Kyle has not seen Marshall pitchers throwing iron balls. Clips are available and it’s not as though they hide the fact that they do. More importantly, it’s impossible for you to know whether or not Kyle has or has not actually seen these pitchers throwing, and you should simply be able to draw conclusions based on his analyses and other scientific studies, studies of other throwing athletes, for instance.