This is the 12-year old Marshall-trained pitcher that is making the rounds about the Internet. You can see all of the pitches he throws in this video in high-speed (appears to be 210 FPS). Go to the video directly to see it in HD quality.
I'll let the viewers draw their own conclusions. The only thing I will say is that the release of the Maxline Pronation Curveball is nearly perfect.
about 1 year ago
Kyle Boddy
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Very interesting
First, I like that some people are re-thinking the pitching mechanics. Just because pitchers have developed a certain way to pitch over the decades of baseball doesn’t mean that is the best way. Re-thinking traditional baseball orthodoxy is always a good idea. Sometimes you find out that the traditional way really is the best way. Sometimes you find out that it is not.
Second, one problem I can see with this delivery isn’t mechanical at all. The problem I see is that this delivery shows the ball to the batter for a very long time. Nothing is hidden, including the grip and delivery. It seems like the curveball and screwball would be tipped by the grip and delivery, making it easily recognizable by the batter.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 4, 2009 9:36 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Kyle, I'm sure you've discussed the before, but...
What do you think of Mike Marshall’s revolutionary theories on mechanics? Would his mechanics be a safe way for a pitcher to throw throughout his career, including lots of major league innings? Would those mechanics be better/safer than the traditional pitching method?
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 4, 2009 3:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Reply to both comments....
I agree that it is useful that people are thinking about pitching mechanics in different ways. I have been in contact with Dr. Marshall with them, and he is good enough to answer all my questions, no matter how silly they are. He has some successes at the big league level (Jeff Sparks, Rudy Seanez), his pitchers very rarely suffer injuries, and release velocities are somewhat competitive (mid-upper 80’s), so there is merit to his ideas.
I don’t think there is any question that Dr. Marshall’s pitching mechanics are safer than traditional ones. However, the real question is whether or not these mechanics can produce enough release velocity and quality pitches to get hitters out. Dr. Marshall’s curveballs and screwballs are very high quality (pronated release allows for significantly more spin), but the fastballs don’t have much movement and don’t quite have the release velocities to compete at high levels – yet. Much of this has to do with genetics, so it’s not all up to him – he can only do the best with the clients he gets, and most of them are college dropouts or injured pitchers.
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by Kyle Boddy on Jan 4, 2009 6:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought I read an article on Marshall and his techniques in which he claimed that his mechanics will actually add a little to a pitcher’s FB velocity. Does he claim this or am I remembering that wrong? Or is this a theory he has that hasn’t been sufficiently tested on better, stronger pitchers?
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 4, 2009 8:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You read correctly.
That is what Dr. Marshall believes. However, in his opinion, pitchers are limited by their genetic ceiling for arm speed, which necessarily limits their maximum release velocities. I agree – the ceiling for any ballistic-type athlete will be limited by the amount of fast-twitch muscle fiber he has, which is 99% genetic (it cannot be impacted in a significant manner using specialized training or supplements).
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by Kyle Boddy on Jan 4, 2009 9:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
How well can velocity be manufactured from a delivery such as this one?
by JonBBT on Jan 4, 2009 5:50 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
That's the real question, isn't it?
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by Kyle Boddy on Jan 4, 2009 6:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Also could he repeat this delivery consistently is another question also.
BOOYA! You got Slurved!
by Slurvey on Jan 4, 2009 6:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I'm not so worried about that.
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by Kyle Boddy on Jan 4, 2009 6:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
let me just say
that the Emperor has no clothes. most ridiculous thing i’ve seen.
now i await an attempted brow-beating by a Marshallite….
Mass X Acceleration = Force
by SteveP on Jan 4, 2009 7:16 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't assume that these mechanics are poor/ineffective/dangerous just because they look different from what we're used to
Based on seeing some kid throw with these mechanics, how can one jump to the conclusion that there’s nothing to Marshall’s theories?
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 4, 2009 8:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
let me ask a practical question:
how do you field your position with your back to plate and falling on your face?
Mass X Acceleration = Force
by SteveP on Jan 4, 2009 9:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll answer you very honestly
I don’t care. There are many pitchers whose delivery takes them way off the mound, falling to their left, which really hurts their ability to field their position. But if it decreases injury, adds to durability and perhaps adds 1 mph to a pitcher’s fastball, I’ll take it. But in the above video clips, I don’t see that kid finishing with his back to the plate or falling on his face. In fact, I see him finishing in at least as good of a fielding position as the average MLB pitcher.
The primary goal of pitching mechanics shouldn’t be to maximize the pitcher’s fielding position. A pitcher’s fielding simply isn’t that important. I think fielding is a tertiary concern at best…and a distant third at that.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 5, 2009 12:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd bet a dollar
That this motion is actually illegal anyway. De facto he’s pushing off with his arm side leg after already having gotten off the mound striding with his glove side leg. If this is legal, pitchers would just run/hop their way to 3 feet in front of the plate.
That’s aside from the fact that there’s no way pushing towards the plate with his arm side foot can be maximizing velocity it’s literally preventing hip rotation.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jan 4, 2009 9:37 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Legality
I actually think this is a legal pitching delivery under MLB rules, though I agree that most umps won’t allow it.
As for your comments about maximizing velocity, I mostly agree. Hip/torso separation is the main contributor of velocity by powerfully pulling the upper body behind the lower body. Segmentation of body parts, proximal to distal, and all that other kinetic link stuff.
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by Kyle Boddy on Jan 4, 2009 9:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it is a legal delivery
And if more pitchers started using this in the minors, minor league umps would get used to it and allow it. And by the time they got to the majors, MLB’s umpire supervisory hierarchy would have ruled on it and sent a directive to the umps to follow the rule book and allow it.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jan 5, 2009 12:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Straight from the actual rulebook
He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.
I’m counting two steps…
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jan 5, 2009 1:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The ball is released before the second step is completed
In that aspect it’s the same as a traditional delivery, except in a traditional delivery the ball is released much earlier in the second “step”
Looks legal to me.
by JonBBT on Jan 5, 2009 9:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess we're on some semantics here
But I don’t think the rulebook is writing this like a basketball step, it’s the spirit of taking one step. This kid is taking two steps (he’s applying forward force twice) whether he lands before release or not.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jan 6, 2009 3:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I actually disagree with your second point.
Two things happen with this kid’s lower body that actually benefit driveline length AND hip rotation.
By taking that extra “step”, his driveline is lengthened by at least 3 feet, giving him more time to apply force to the baseball and shortening the distance between release point and the plate.
The hip rotation benefit isn’t as obvious but when that wrong foot moves forward past his glove foot, his hips are rotating. Marshall teaches pitchers to not just take that step, but to take a powerful step while pulling with the glove foot. As the center of mass moves forward, the hips continue to rotate and the pull of the front leg becomes a push.
As for the legality, it’s no less legal than the stride Lincecum or Volquez takes when they fly off the rubber to release their pitches. It just looks different. If his throwing foot hits before the ball is released, then it becomes illegal.
Neftali Feliz is not a swimmer.
by NoNameOnCard on Jan 5, 2009 8:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see it
But I’m not absolutely locked into my stance either, I’d just like to see a single Marshall trained pitcher throw in the 90s and not anywhere near 77 first…
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jan 6, 2009 3:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
nice posts by Fleisig
btw, I’ve always wondered why ASMI doesn’t at least have a real dirt mound to throw off of.
Mass X Acceleration = Force
by SteveP on Jan 6, 2009 5:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair
The “elite” pitchers don’t even hit 90.
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by Kyle Boddy on Jan 6, 2009 8:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
But Marshall’s guys are 8-12 mph slower. Even if the elite group is made up of Felix Hernandez 95 mph potential but on a horrifically bad day—-and we assume the Marshall pitchers can make the same kind of 6-10 mph improvement that it would take to get Felix back up to 95—-it means the Marshall pitchers are 83-87 which still doesn’t get it done unless they have once in a generation Maddux command…which noted in the study they very much do not have.
To recap, making every possible ridiculous assumption there still isn’t a way in the world Marshall’s guys are major leaguers.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Jan 7, 2009 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I agree.
With the exception of Jeff Sparks (and Rudy Seanez), his players are not MLB-level talent. I was just pointing out that the particular criticism you used was not necessarily valid.
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by Kyle Boddy on Jan 7, 2009 7:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I say this purely out of curiosity
Have Dr. Marshall’s theories been subjected to peer review? Can someone link me to something that has been peer reviewed?
by jonnypedantic on Jan 5, 2009 7:45 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
In so many words, no. None.
Well, actually, that’s not true. You can see ASMI’s study of Dr. Marshall’s pitchers in this thread.
But as far as published papers go, no, he has none.
Webmaster of Driveline Mechanics
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by Kyle Boddy on Jan 5, 2009 8:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone know where there is any video of Mike Marshall himself?
by JonBBT on Jan 5, 2009 9:24 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
In his instructional videos, you can find high-speed footage of Dr. Marshall throwing. Not sure which video, but it’s there.
Webmaster of Driveline Mechanics
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by Kyle Boddy on Jan 5, 2009 10:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Before I go through all of them, is that him now, or him in his playing days?
I wanted to see some video of him in his prime.
by JonBBT on Jan 5, 2009 10:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
In his playing days.
Webmaster of Driveline Mechanics
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com - An Unconventional Look at Scouting
by Kyle Boddy on Jan 6, 2009 12:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs











