Jason Bay vs. Matt Holliday, Bill James vs. devil_fingers: Free Agent Projection Showdown
Yes, it's that time of year... projections are already coming out. Dan Szymborski from Baseball Think Factory has already published his ZiPS projections for a few teams, and I may (or may not) do some very basic projections once Baseball Databank's database is posted.
The first public player projections usually publicized in full in the offseason are the Bill James (maybe you've heard of him?) projections that are also included in the Bill James handbook. That's right, the 2010 Bill James Handbook is already available for pre-order from Acta Sports, so check it out. The projections are fun to look at, but there's much more the Handbook than that -- it usually includes cool extras like possible "career path" projections (e.g., how likely certain players are to hit certain milestones), Bill James' baserunning numbers, player win shares, the annual Fielding Bible Awards, and more. This season the Handbook is featuring new stuff on instant replay and pinch hitting analysis.
In the meantime, they've distributed their player projections to some SBNation staff for a preview. I imagine your team site may or may not be posting about that, but for my purposes, this couldn't come at a better time, as I was planning on doing a post on the two of the biggest free agents on the 09-10 market: Matt Holliday and Jason Bay. Here are the James hitting projections for the players -- I've calculated the wOBA myself, of course, using the Tango's original weights
| Name | AB | H | 2B | 3B | HR | BB | SB | CS | BA | OBP | SLG | wOBA |
| Jason Bay | 560 | 150 | 32 | 2 | 32 | 88 | 11 | 4 | .268 | .378 | .504 | .377 |
| Matt Holliday | 605 | 155 | 43 | 3 | 27 | 66 | 14 | 6 | .316 | .395 | .531 | .394 |
Assuming something like this season's run environment (.329 league wOBA), over 700 PAs, that would make Bay about a +29 runs above average, and Holliday about +38. The James projections often seem optimistic, and, if the internet has taught us anything the last couple of seasons, it's that it isn't all about offense. And if it's taught us anything else, it's that there's a lot of different ways of projecting players... so let's see how "my" crude projections (based solely-on unadjusted wOBA) stack up against the Big Bad Bill James projections when combined with estimates of each players' other skills to get their individual True Talent Wins Above Replacement (WAR), and, even better, see how much they might get in contracts in the offseason.
It's not just Bay vs. Holliday, it's James vs. fingers. Bring it.
d_f Hitting projection: Bay's been a good hitter, although he had real hiccup in 2007. From 2006 to 2009, his wOBAs have been .394, .326, .387, .397. Adjusting for age (very slightly) and regressing to the mean, we estimate his current true wOBA talent level at .367, or about 22 runs above average per 700 PA.
Fielding: Some wonder if Fenway has adversely affected Bay's fielding, given his -18.2 UZR/150 in 2008 and -8.7 in 2009. But he wasn't exactly David DeJesus or Carl Crawford out in left in 2007 in Pittsburgh, featuring -11.4. He was only in 2006. The Fans have been a bit schizo according to my translations, having him slightly below average in 2009 (-3.6) and 2007 (-2.1) but loving him (post-Manny?) in 2008 (+8.4) and 2006 (+12.4). And that's why we combine sources and regress. We estimate Bay's current true talent in the field to be about 4 runs below average.
Total Value: +22 hitting - 7.5 positional adjustment -4 hitting + 25 AL replacement = 35.5 runs above replacement times 85% playing time minus half a win (5 runs) for a player 30 or older = about a 2.5 WAR player according to my crude calculations. How about he James projection with our other stuff? It's a bit strange, since we did all our aging (post-2009) in one lump 0.5 sum, and the James projections for offense have it already figured in, so we'll just turn the 5 runs into 3 runs. So we get +28.5 hitting - 7.5 positional adjustment -4 hitting + 25 AL replacement = 42 runs above replacement times 85% playing time - 3 runs aging = ~3.3 WAR player.
d_f Hitting projection: Holliday got off to a rough start in Oakland, but recovered more than people think, and was awesome in Saint Louis. It's not all Colorado, folks... From 2006-2009 his seasonal wOBA's have been .409, ,428, .418, and .390. Adjusted and regressed, we estimate Holliday's true wOBA talent at .390, or about 36 runs above average.
Fielding: Yes, he had quite the miscue in the playoffs. But have you seen the average corner outfielder in the major leagues? Holliday's actually been pretty good (according to UZR) compared to his peers, having UZR/150s of -5.5, 14.7, 10.9, and 3.2 from 2006-2009. His fans have been a bit more consistent than Bay's, and have tracked his UZR better, with -5.8, 2.3, 4.9, and 3.0 according to my translations. Altogether, that makes him about a +4 fielder in LF.
Total Value: + 36 hitting + 4 fielding -7.5 positional adjustment + 20 NL replacement level = 52.5 runs above replacement times 85% playing time minus 5 runs aging = about a 4 WAR player. How about with the James numbers? + 38 hitting + 4 fielding - 7.5 positional adjustment + 20 NL replacement level = 54.5 runs above replacement times 85% playing time minus 3 runs aging = about 4.3 WAR. That's good, but I'm not sure it's quite in Mark Teixeira territory, as Holliday's agent Scott Boras asserted (although their Fangraphs WAR numbers are similar, keep in mind that it doesn't yet take into account league differences; moreover, outfield defense is subject to greater measurement error. Also keep in mind that Holliday will be year older than Teixeira when he is reaching free agency).
Me, Bill, and the Money
Even adjusting for league, Holliday is the far superior player -- not Teixeira, but probably the best free agent positional player on the market, and far better than Bay, who is above average, but not much better than that.
So it's all fun, but what difference does it make? I mean, we'll see who was "right" (probably neither of us... let's see what CHONE, ZiPS, and PECOTA say) after the season. Biut what we are reallyl interested in is the money, right? It's hard to tell what the dollar-to-projected WAR rate will be after the turbuelent offseason last year. I haven't researched it, but I'll guess $4.8 million per WAR (Keep in mind that we have to add in the $400,000 replacement salary for each year). Assuming 10% a year salary inflation and the "normal" 0.5 WAR a season decline for position players, the difference is this.
Bay on the "d_f projection" (2.5 WAR) can except contracts in this range: 1/$12M, 2/$24M, 3/$33M, 4/$40M, 5/$44M
But if he's a 3.3 WAR player (on the James figure), we'd estimate something like: 1/$16M, 2/$32M, 3/$46M, 4/$58M, 5/$67M, 6/$74M...
You get the idea...millions at stake. It may not seem like much at first, but especially on the longer deals, it really adds up.
How about Holliday at 4 WAR (d_f)? 1/$20M, 2/$39M, 3/$57M, 4/$73M, 5/$88M, 6/$100M, 7/$108M...
At 4.3 (James): 1/$21M, 2/$42M, 3/$62M, 4/$80M, 5/$86M, 6/$111M, 7/$122M...
This assumes that the projections are in the right ballpark, and, even more difficult, that it's $4.8 for WAR. And these are just estimates, not taking into accoujnt long-term security, etc. This is the alleged "fair market" value given the above caveats. But should a team pay that? For most teams -- no. A team on a budget, with a budget comparable to most of their peers, has to be getting more than the average baseball dollars worth for their money. This is what an average team will pay.
Average teams finish .500.
On average.
Now we'll see what the Red Sox, Yankees, Cardinals, and who knows who else thinks.
2 recs |
22 comments
|
Comments
I see Bay turning into a Jose Guillen
No defense and always hurt. Bay has at least made 1 or 2 trips to the DL the last few years. I could see his PA around 400 to 500 in the near future. I think teams would reget any 3 year deal or more.
I could see him ending up as a Cub or a Met.
Jeff Zimmerman - Protecting the world from RBI's and Wins from my mom's guest house.
by Jeff Zimmerman (TucsonRoyal) on Oct 22, 2009 7:39 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You'll soon be linked to by several Cards fans who are arguing against a potential $100M Holliday contract.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Oct 22, 2009 7:54 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
is that good or bad?
Is there an inside “Cardinals fan” thing I’m missing here?
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by devil_fingers on Oct 22, 2009 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, you get hits, so it's not bad.
There’s just a lot of kool-aid being spilled on VEB about how if we don’t sign Holliday (5/100 is being talked about) then the 2010 season is over before it begins.
"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus
by hazel on Oct 22, 2009 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Something's wonky in the stats table
155 hits in 605 ABs isn’t going to come out to a .316 AVG.
Good stuff otherwise! :)
I write a Cardinals blog, Pitchers Hit Eighth.
by Pitchers Hit Eighth on Oct 22, 2009 11:39 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
d'oh
I noticed the mistake on my spreadsheet when calculating the wOBA and fixed it, but forgot to fix the hits columb for Holliday in the take. It should be about 190. I’ll fix it when I get home.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by devil_fingers on Oct 22, 2009 2:12 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff, d_f
And has Hazel mentioned, very timely for us Cards fans.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 22, 2009 1:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Adjusted and regressed, we estimate Holliday’s true wOBA talent at .390, or about 36 runs above average.
What is the adjusted portion of this? park? age? league?
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Oct 23, 2009 5:22 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Also --
Holliday has played in 93.8% of the games over the last 4 years. The 85% playing time coefficient is based on . . . a standard “everyone gets hurt” coefficient? I’m assuming this isn’t player specific in which instance I wonder if he’s being properly valuated for staying healthy.
Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation
by azruavatar on Oct 23, 2009 5:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Adjusted
I try to keep it simple — there’s just a very slightly age adjustment (for guys Holliday and Bay’s age, it’s almost nothing) — it’s even more simple than Marcel, overall.
As for 85% — that’s just following Tango in that. Maybe it’s a bit low, but I think it’s safe for guys, even those without previous injury problems, especially when they’re entering their 30s. It’s about 600 PAs. If you want to go up to 92% or so (and this is PA scale, so that’ls moving from about 600 to about 630), then Holliday’s WAR increases by about 5%, which would put him more in the James range.
But when we’re talking WAR, 1-2 wins is well within the error bars for that sort of conception and also for these basic projections — there’s probably more of a problem in not adjusting more for Holliday’s years in Colorado. I thin ~4 is pretty fair to him.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by devil_fingers on Oct 23, 2009 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holliday has averaged 150 games a year
Which is about 600 plate appearances (in actuality, he’s gotten much more due to the fact that he’s played on really good offensive teams in 07 and 08). The WAR components that D_F is using are scaled to 600 plate appearances, so if you take Holliday’s health at face value, there is no need for the 85%. However, health is a skill, and like all skills, it needs to be regressed. 85% may be a little be too much, but it’s not unreasonable.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 23, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The league adjustment is done in the final WAR calc
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by devil_fingers on Oct 23, 2009 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holliday has been slightly better than Teixeira over their careers much better since 06.
Since 06 Holliday has been worth 24.6 WAR, Teixeira 18.8, why would Holliday suddenly have his worst season since 05 next year? I’d be surprised if Holliday is worth less than 5 WAR next year.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Oct 23, 2009 12:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That's supposed to be 24.1 not 24.6
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Oct 23, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
why would Holliday suddenly have his worst season since 05 next year?
Because he’s been really, really good the past 3 years. Unless you think he is one of the best players of all time, he’s not going to continue to average over 6 WAR a season.
by vivaelpujols on Oct 23, 2009 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think 5-5.5 is reasonable for the next 2 years.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Oct 23, 2009 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think 4.5 is more reasonable ;)
by vivaelpujols on Oct 23, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
he’s only 30 next year, I think people are selling him short and I greatly disagree with the comment in the piece that he’s not in Teixeira’s territory, in fact I think it’s the other way around. He’s a good defender, has a career .400 wOBA, I think he has at least a year or two left of excellence.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Oct 23, 2009 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I may have been a bit unfair
I should make it clear that I thikn Holliday is a very good player, and I also know my projections may be a bit on the conserivative side.
I didn’t do a retro-jection for teixeira from last season — I thought I remembered him being projected as about 5 WAR. A quick look and I would have had him at about 4.5 wins (as opposed to about 4 for Holliday). That doesn’t adjust for parks. I think people “overadjust” for Coors, but in this case, although Teixeira did spend some time in Texas, those the amount of time (and the weight of those years) aren’t as great as Holliday’s time in Colorado. So I think the gap would be a bit better.
SO I think Teixeira was a better FA for a number of reasons — Holliday is still very good.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by devil_fingers on Oct 23, 2009 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are certainly entitled to your opinion and you do great work on the site,
I just really really hate Mark Teixeira, mostly cause I have heard people compare him to Keith Hernandez defensively. The previous seasons have Holliday as the better player and I can’t see a reason why not. He has played better defense in left over his career than Tex has at first, his career wOBA is slightly higher, and they’re the same age, I just can’t see a reason to like Tex over him.
"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."
by Evan_S on Oct 23, 2009 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
age
It’s not a huge deal overall, but while they’re the same age, Teixeira got to free agency a year earlier — so that’s going to make a difference in terms of his short-term projection and aging curve
Also, as mentioned above, FanGraphs WAR doesn’t yet adjust for league difficulty — AL pitching is superior to NL
There’s other stuff, and like I said, I’m just reporting the basic “projection” I get from very simplistic projection techniques — this isn’t based on my specific opinion about these players, but the same technique I use for all the players. Heck, once baseball databank is ready, my offensive projections for a lot of these players will be different.
but, anyway, disagreement is good for intellectual health.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by devil_fingers on Oct 23, 2009 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs














