Quick Note: Study on Dr. Marshall's Delivery
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9556860/JohnDFinal31
This is Dr. John D'Acquisto's analysis of Patrick Howe. Patrick is the son of Bill Peterson, who is the owner and founder of RPM Pitching. Dr. John D'Acquisto compared the "Refined Conventional Delivery" (I assume this is a model of what RPM Pitching teaches) and the "Unconventional Marshall Motion." It is important to note that it is Peterson's son performing both types of deliveries, and as such, there could be a conflict of interest. Regardless, it makes for interesting reading. The conclusions indicate that the Marshall delivery, in practice, causes reduced hand speed efficiencies; this variable is correlated with higher rates of fatigue and injury.
For those who do not know who Dr. John D'Acquisto is, here's his Baseball-Reference page. He was the NL Rookie of the Year in 1974 and purportedly threw in the high 90's, hitting 100 occasionally.
Dr. Marshall has responded to this criticism of his delivery with a rebuttal of his own. It can be found at the end of his 2009 Question and Answer file until he posts his next batch of emails.
I have my own thoughts on the whole issue, but I need time to compile them. Feel free to sound off on the comments.
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What the hell was D'Acquisto talking about?
He is noted to have a pre-mature braking action of forward momentum causing him to release the ball in an upright posture that places the burden of shoulder capsule stress in the anterior compartment.
I would love to see the biomechanical evidence for that statement. He said himself, earlier in the paper, that Patrick has an arm drag when he uses Marshall’s delivery. Arm drag is a timing issue that puts stress on the anterior capsule by stretching it all to hell while it tries to apply force across the joint. Somehow, he blames Patrick’s “premature braking” for the anterior capsule stress. Can anyone explain this to me?
Even though arm drag is not a part of Marshall’s delivery, D’Acquisto goes on to say, “The subject’s basic form is good in demonstrating both motions.” At the end he basically dissects Patrick’s inability to execute Marshall’s teaching cues. If he doesn’t do those things, what exactly makes his basic form “good”?
by NoNameOnCard on Apr 20, 2009 11:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Dr. Mike...
I was wondering if we could get an analysis of his pitching motion from either of you two fine gentlemen. :-)
The only time I’ve seen him throw was in the MLB Network feature with him, and even those two clips weren’t exactly the greatest clips to analyze.
But it’s better than nothing, eh?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
by baetown415 on Apr 21, 2009 12:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Dr. Marshall
Trip and I talk fairly frequently over instant messaging these days, and we (mostly) share the same philosophies on pitching. We both think that there’s two sides to Dr. Marshall – what he teaches in theory and what can be practically attained. I’ll let Trip elaborate, but he found himself throwing in a similar manner as many of Dr. Marshall’s students – on his own!
I think there’s mitigating injury risks to the anterior shoulder structure of Dr. Marshall’s students; additionally, Dr. Marshall’s disbelief of how the kinetic chain is described by today’s kinesiologists (specifically his belief that the ball must be going forward for the kinetic chain to positively contribute to ball velocity) means that he’s not willing to debate this topic. The kinetic chain does work via ground reactionary forces, meaning that energy can be transferred from proximal to distal segments of the body without the hand moving positively in the X-plane (towards the target). Dr. Marshall does not believe this is true – unfortunately for him, modern exercise scientists and kinesiologists disagree. As a result, his pitching mechanics are designed to stop reverse rotation of the shoulders (good) and subtract the concept of hip/torso separation entirely (bad) through the drop step mechanism.
Just a few years ago, he believed that the hips should forwardly rotate ahead of the shoulders, but now believes the hips, torso, and arm should rotate as a unit. The former is biomechanically efficient; the latter is not. Rotating the hips ahead of the shoulders (and the shoulders ahead of the arm) transfers energy that builds up efficiently throughout the chain; rotating them as a unit is highly inefficient. However, it is important to note that this is not necessarily the most effective way to compete in ballistic events.
For example: For actions requiring high-speed ballistic activity of an object that weighs 5 oz. (such as a baseball), transferring energy from proximal to distal and separating body segments with the hand and middle finger coming through last will generate the most force and the highest velocity. However, for actions requiring long-distance ballistic activity of an object that weighs 8 pounds (shot put), the same mechanics would easily destroy the fragile bones and tissues in the arm – this is why you see different throwing mechanics for shot putters.
Dr. Marshall would say that throwing a baseball that weighs 5 ounces in a manner differently than throwing an object that weighs 8 pounds are bad mechanics and would predict an injury to occur. This is why his students throw 8 pound lead balls with little trouble and no injury to connective tissue. However, I disagree – the manner in which we apply forces with a lower weighted object (such as a baseball) can utilize the kinetic chain in an effective and safe manner if we attain a (mostly) vertical pitching forearm and avoid as much side-to-side movement as possible. Of course, this is what Dr. Marshall shoots for – but his body action is significantly different than what most people teach. I have little problem with his arm action, and only mainly disagree with how he utilizes the lower body.
Webmaster of Driveline Mechanics
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com - An Unconventional Look at Scouting
by Kyle Boddy on Apr 21, 2009 12:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good explanation
Any theories on why Marshall’s guys from Sparks to Fleisig’s study seemingly have no idea where the ball is going every time they are brought into the light?
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Apr 21, 2009 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Throwing strikes (or lack thereof)
I think it has mostly to do with the fact that Dr. Marshall forces them to throw six pitches in particular sequences based on the handedness and the type of batter they are facing. MLB-caliber pitchers have trouble locating three pitches for strikes, much less six!
Webmaster of Driveline Mechanics
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com - An Unconventional Look at Scouting
by Kyle Boddy on Apr 21, 2009 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am one of Dr. Mike Marshall' students
I have a video of me pitching and i throw strikes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEOVvOWWLt4
by Baseballfan2009 on Apr 26, 2009 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was crappy LHP walk-on at a DIII school as a freshman...
Without having seen Marshall’s delivery or drills on video, having only read descriptions of them, I attempted to better my delivery. I focused mostly on the teaching cues because the technical stuff was over my head at the time. I wanted to get better, and the science behind it didn’t matter to me (except for the physics).
I physically didn’t know what I was doing, but I followed the cues. Eventually, I scrapped the idea and went back to a traditional delivery. What I didn’t know was that my Marshall-inspired arm action had stuck. My fastball jumped 7 mph over the course of my sophomore season.
I saw some of Marshall’s students on video in 2005 and thought to myself that I really not come close to what he was talking about. I finally found out that I was using Marshall’s arm action (despite several people telling me it looked weird and having watched myself in the mirror) when I saw a video of Marshall pitching for the Dodgers. I ran to the mirror and discovered that I had more or less nailed it.
My opinion now is that I was executing his delivery better than the pitchers he worked with every day.
Fun fact: I tore my labrum playing hockey in the spring of 2001, 8 months before I walked onto the baseball team. I didn’t have surgery until March 10, 2009. After my freshman year, there was no pain and I never got sore. The arm action works.
by NoNameOnCard on Apr 21, 2009 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh um....
I meant Dr. Mike’s mechanics when he was a player (which aren’t what he teaches now).
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
by baetown415 on Apr 21, 2009 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The arm action is the same.
The body action is what he changed.
The arm action looks different because his students have trouble performing his delivery… which is also the biggest problem with D’Acquisto’s study.
by NoNameOnCard on Apr 23, 2009 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Dr. Mike has a motion than no one aside from himself and the 12-year-old Marshall phenom can perform?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
by baetown415 on Apr 23, 2009 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the body action complicates things.
Anyone can do it, I just think his students have issues with execution. In fact, I think a lot of people accidentally use Marshall’s arm action – usually it’s untrained throwers and young kids who haven’t been coached to throw traditionally.
There’s just something missing in between what Marshall’s ideal motion is and what his students actually do when they throw.
The last few pages of D’Acquisto’s report basically outline these differences. I have no idea why they can’t seem to execute it.
by NoNameOnCard on Apr 24, 2009 12:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
I know you’re crazy busy and all, but could you also do an analysis on Roy Halladay (or if not, point me to a good analysis of Doc)?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
If Dustin Pedroia played in Seattle, not many people would be talking about him.
by baetown415 on Apr 21, 2009 12:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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