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Fire Joe Morgan's Brave New Frontier: Mocking Good Players

Short, fast, white, no power, and a Yankee: I wonder what the Fire Joe Morgan guys will think of Brett Gardner? Whatever it is, I'm sure it's backed up with plenty of numbers!

More photos » Bill Kostroun - AP

Short, fast, white, no power, and a Yankee: I wonder what the Fire Joe Morgan guys will think of Brett Gardner? Whatever it is, I'm sure it's backed up with plenty of numbers!

Let's get one thing straight. I love(d) Fire Joe Morgan as much as the next pretentious internet baseball fan. You can look through my various crappy postings and find their influence all over the place.

I love Joe Posnanski's stuff, too, so much that I wrote a Joe Posnanski Drinking Game a while back as a loving tribute (although I'm snot sure he took it that way... assuming that he knows I exist). But sometimes Joe writes things that bug me (e.g., his bizarre apologies for Pete Rose) and I make smartass remarks about it and people think I "don't like" Poz/JoPo. So let's get one thing clear:

JOE POSNANSKI IS MY FAVORITE SPORTS JOURNALIST, AND, NO, THAT ISN'T INTENDED TO DAMN HIM WITH FAINT PRAISE.

It's the same thing with the Fire Joe Morgan guys. The blog was great. I had a very brief and friendly email exchange with Junior a long time ago (that he undoubtedly doesn't remember). At one time I liked The Office so much that I wrote an extremely long post comparing the 2008 Royals with The Office. And even though the post-3rd season drop off of that show somewhat resembles the 2009 Royals, I still like it, them, and the Royals (for some reason).

I LIKE FIRE MORGAN AND GENERALLY FIND THE WRITERS TO BE FUNNY

But a person can only take so much. Like many of you, I am enjoying today's FJM Reunion at Deadspin. But then I read Junior's post about some other blogger's post about "scrappy" players. Yeah, I agree with Junior's underlying point that "scrappy" doesn't make a player good or not. I also realize his main beef is with the writer of the post, not the players. I realize how silly and predictable it is for some blogger (me) to write a quasi-Fisking of another blog's Fisking of another blog. Given that the intertubez are a lot like junior high, I also realize how stupid it is for me to "take on" a writer who is smarter than me, funnier than me,  and (most of all) more popular than me. But I just can't resist. I mean, maybe the FJM guys somehow missed my award-winning (if after-the-fact) article on Walks, Defense and the New Moneyball, but I was late to the game myself. An aside about Nyjer Morgan (4.9 WAR this season) in Ken Tremendous's introductory post this morning is one thing... but then Junior has to go and pour salt in the wound...

Star-divide

Okay, it's not all that bad. I fact, I have no problem with most of it, even if it's a bit tired after all this time.  Junior is right about many of the guys. I'll just give the Bleacher Report blogger's rankings, then a gist of Junior's comments.

#10. Eric Byrnes is terrible at this point in his career. Yup.

#9. Nate McLouth It's interesting how Junior doesn't  have much to say about Nate McLouth other than the blogger he's ripping on wrote something "boring" about McLouth. For one thing, McClouth is a decent (>3 war) player... but no comments about McLouth's joke of a Gold Glove award in 2008? Not a huge deal, but a bad portent of things to come.

#8. Augie Ojeda. Funny comments about the stupidity of saying "knows how to play the game." Ojeda is actually a good defender, even if he can't hit, so he's a decent utility/stopgap guy.

#7. Aaron Rowand, a player not as good as he once was. Right on, if gratuitous.

#6. Reed Johnson, another crappy utility guy.

#5. David Eckstein. What a surprise (both for the inclusion and Junior's comments). Junior (admittedly) isn't breaking any new ground. But you know what's interesting? Certain media members have no doubt been annoying in their deification of Eckstein, but in terms of actual value, prior to 2008 he always delivered more value than he was paid for to his teams. A 4.0 War season for the World Champion 2002 Angels is pretty impressive. But even his stopgap 1.5 WAR years are good for the money -- and that's the main lesson, post-Moneyball, of sabermetrics -- a player being "good" or "bad" for his team is finally relative not only to what he contributes on the field, but how he's paid relative to that value. I'm not saying that Eckstein was/is actually a great player, of course, and FJM got a lot of great laughs out of mocking the way he was and is glorified by some sportswriters. But the truth is, having David Eckstein on your team at those salaries fro 2002-2007 was a pretty good idea. And that's a big difference in how the sabermetrically-savvy fans (the "real" sabermetricians always knew this) think in 2009 as opposed to, say, 2006.

#4. Chone Figgins. Junior says "Chone Figgins is pretty good." He's right. Looking at the FJM archives, you see they aren't that hard on Chone, and kind of like him. But that's an interesting contrast with

#3. Brett Gardner. This is the big one. It's awesome. Junior writes:

It's got to be tough when you're the worst player on your team and you arbitrarily get picked to be on a list of scrappy players because you're super white and you're the worst player on your team. He would also be the worst player on like 12 other teams.

I'm kidding, of course. A-Rod is the worst player on the Yankees, and in baseball history in general.

If you write any article about baseball and it's not a list of terrible players and Brett Gardner is in your article, you shouldn't write the article.

 

Love the A-Rod non sequitur. So 2006. But, um "Brett Gardner is terrible?" Now, I admit I haven't looked at Gardner's WARP3 or VORP or whatever advanced stats FJM liked to throw down back in the day (note that when I got my appendix removed earlier this summer, I also didn't go to a barber), but when I look at Gardner's WAR I somehow fail to see "terrible" player. 2.0 WAR is about average over a full season. Gardner is 2.0 WAR in only 248 PAs so far this season, and 1.1 WAR in 141 PAs in 2008. If you prefer comparing to average, Gardner has been above average both seasons.

Now, granted, less than 400 PA over two seasons is a very small sample. I don't want to be guilty of assuming current performance = true talent (I'm sure Junior is using a very sophisticated in-season projection tool). But still, he was projected at around .315 wOBA before the season, and even if you think he's "only" about a +12 defender in CF (his career UZR/150 is about +27), that's still a league average player. How is that "terrible?" How is that worse than Jose Molina? Heck, 2.0 WAR it's half a win better than his teammate Melky Cabrera has put up in much greater playing time. It's also about as good as FJM hero Adam Dunn has been this season, and way better than he was last season. I love Adam Dunn as a hitter, but as a player he's barely average... well, he's a perfect avatar of the prime FJM era, as Dunn was undervalued as a player at the same time VORP was a decent "total value" stat. Or when The Office was one of the better shows on TV.

Again, it's a small sample. Brett Gardner probably isn't quite as good as the stats have him as being so far this season. Flukes happen. For example, I once found something in an episode of  Parks and Recreation funny. But you can't just say that Gardner is terrible because somebody called him "scrappy" and fits the "profile" (short, white, no power) of the guys that FJM loves to hate. And writing a column ripping someone else for not paying attention to stats while calling a player who is above average both offensively and defensively so far this season is just, well, something just like what FJM would have called out "back in the day."

#2. Shane Victorino. Apparently, nine Albert Pujols would beat a team with Shane Victorino on it. Outside of the question of how Albert $8 would do in CF, HAHA VICTORINO, YOU AREN'T AS GOOD AS ALBERT PUJOLS! YOU SUCK! Way to take down that moron. 3.4 WAR = TEH SUCK

#1. Dustin Pedroia. Junior's right. Pedroia helps his team by being good. Weird how Junior doesn't bring up Pedroia's "whiteness" here. It's probably because that isn't a factor for Red Sox fans (like the writers of FJM), given the racial tolerance and openness historically displayed by the Red Sox franchise, fans,  and the city of Boston as a whole.

Then he ends with another rant about Eckstein, which isn't as fun as it should be, perhaps because it is about as tired as a sitcom love story after 5-6 seasons.

Okay, this wasn't as fun as I thought it would be (although it was a lot more enjoyable than the reliever post I've been muddling with for a few days). The Gardner thing was the only truly egregious silliness. Unless they bring up Nyjer Morgan again...

It's nice to have you guys back. If by some weird coincidence you manage to see this, please don't hurt  me. But do take a look at FanGraphs when you get the chance. I hear this "sabermetrics" stuff is pretty cool.

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That article was meh, but did you read the MJ/Fawcet one?
In 1984, Michael wore one glove, which is something in common with baseball players.

Can’t argue with the facts, guys. That truly is something Michael Jackson had in common with baseball players. He also sang the song “Man In The Mirror,” which is an incredible coincidence given that baseball players often look at themselves in mirrors. Some players are even “Bad” at baseball. Like Willie Harris!

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Sep 16, 2009 11:23 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

nice -- Harris has been above average for 3 straight seasons

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 16, 2009 12:30 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

This article is... odd

You are fisking a fisking, and one which acknowledged its own absurdity at that. And sometimes you just miss the point (as with Victorino).

Your criticisms come down basically to: “the FJM don’t give enough credence to UZR; therefore this statement is egregiously stupid.” Brett Gardner DOES suck… at hitting. If you have faith in the reliability of UZR (mine wavers quite often), then his defense makes up for that; if you don’t, then he just sucks. I love fangraphs, but the ready availability of WAR numbers has caused them to get much more credence than they are due.

by aCone419 on Sep 16, 2009 1:11 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Disagree

I am going to have to disagree with you. As stated in the article, Gardner hasn’t been just an above average fielder, he has been an above average hitter as well. His wOBA is .343 on the season, and the average is .329.

I don’t see how you draw the conclusion that Brett Gardner “sucks” at hitting from this data. If you want some reason this might be indicative of Gardner’s true talent level, his K% has been the best it has ever been, and he seemingly doesn’t swing at ANYTHING outside of the strike zone.

I doubt he’ll maintain a .343 wOBA, but even if it drops to .329, he is still an average hitter, not a terrible one.

by gfertel on Sep 16, 2009 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Career numbers

His career wRAA: -1.8.

by aCone419 on Sep 17, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I should add

I don’t think that Gardner is axiomatically bad, or even axiomatically bad at hitting. But can proffer a reasonable line of argument that he is not good (and thus, hyperbolically, “sucks”) at hitting.

by aCone419 on Sep 17, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

-1.8 runs is very slightly below average

So that would mean that Gardner is very slightly below average is you only looked at hitting. However, he is also a very good fielder (even if you don’t trust UZR, he’s always had a good reputation and good minor league defensive stats) and plays center field, which is a skill position. So if he is a slightly below average hitter, a well above average fielder and plays a skill position, he is an above average player, which means he doesn’t suck!, even hyperbolically.

by vivaelpujols on Sep 17, 2009 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I love fangraphs, but the ready availability of WAR numbers has caused them to get much more credence than they are due.

Now, I have some issues with WAR, but Fangraphs has certainly earned all the credit they get. If you don’t think so I really think you should browse every aspect of the site you can find, keeping in mind just how much great information they’re providing us, outside of just WAR.

by Missing Barry on Sep 16, 2009 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

unclear

The “them” referred to “WAR numbers.” Poor sentence construction on my part.

by aCone419 on Sep 17, 2009 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The excitement over the one day reunion has more to do with welcoming back the familiar snark and wit

and FJM format rather than having them back to debunk whatever the beat is producing, I would think. Because advanced stats have become so readily available and sabermetrics have been inching their way into the mainstream it’s not difficult to find people that can tell you why Beat Writer X is an idiot. I think we all just missed the fellas. That said, I’m not really worried about disagreeing with some of the content.

by JonBBT on Sep 16, 2009 3:02 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

I admit the above isn’t that great — I think I was just excited to have something to write about rather than trying to figure out how to explain WPA and WPA/LI or something.

That said, it was “all too familiar” (insert Parks and Rec/The Office joke here) for me. Basically, we got a bunch of recycled riffs on Jeter and Eckstein… yay.

But re; Gardner, Harris, and Morgan… I guess I could have just written, “If you’re going to mock sportwritesr for celebrating bad baseball players because they don’t look at stasts, maybe you shouldn’t rip on decent-to-good baseball players because you didn’t bother to look at stats.”

I guess I just set my sights a bit high.

On the “positive” side, <a href="http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firejoemorgan.com%2F2008%2F07%2Fturdclump.html&ei=K2KxSqi5O8Ki8Abd8I28BA&rct=j&q=turdclump+fire+joe+morgan&usg=AFQjCNGFtcr1NJtA1_8FWqXy5EO4FYjeyg" target="new">here’s one of my all-time favorite FJM riffs, and it’s even from the “later” years.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 16, 2009 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

link fail

<a href="http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firejoemorgan.com%2F2008%2F07%2Fturdclump.html&ei=K2KxSqi5O8Ki8Abd8I28BA&rct=j&q=turdclump+fire+joe+morgan&usg=AFQjCNGFtcr1NJtA1_8FWqXy5EO4FYjeyg" target="new">Here it is

Ironically, Flanagan was laid off just a few months later, prompting all sorts of “ironically, a bitter, unemployed Jeffrey Flanagan is now living in his mom’s basement” jokes at Royals Review.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 16, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

ARGH

one more time for the world

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 16, 2009 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure they're being as hypocritcal as you suggest

The FJM writers clearly looked at stats, just not the stats you (and I, for the most part) now believe are important. There’s a world of difference between critisizing sports writers for not looking up stats as simple as OBP and critisizing the FJM folks for not going to Fangraphs and embracing the enormous differences in value that UZR engenders.

by happydrifter on Sep 17, 2009 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe

saying that Gardner and Harris are “terrible” is pretty bad.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 17, 2009 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How can you leave off Darin Erstad?

no brainer. I would also nominate David Newhan as at least an honorable mention in recent years. granted, I don’t even think he’s on the Phillies roster at the moment, but they signed him as a free agent back in July.

also, Chone Figgins doesn’t belong on this list. all numbers aside (which in his case are good), there’s a difference between a speedy guy who hustles, who has matured into a phenomenal defensive infielder, and someone like Brett Gardner, who does… well, I’m not really sure what he does.

"This is a guy who is a combination of great courage and, nuts!"- Steve Physioc

by Brian S (brianguy) on Sep 16, 2009 3:40 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chone

…and I say that about Chone, not because he’s black.

exactly how well does Brett Gardner compare to Aaron Boone, anyway?

"This is a guy who is a combination of great courage and, nuts!"- Steve Physioc

by Brian S (brianguy) on Sep 16, 2009 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gardner

He’s not a great hitter decent patience, but can’t drive the ball — probably a rich man’s Endy Chavez with the bat. But he’s a great baserunner (34/40 SB/CS in his short major league career), and a very good defender in CF.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 16, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I always forget that Darin Erstad is still an active player.

Craziness.

Did the Astros sign Rusty Greer as well?

by JonBBT on Sep 16, 2009 7:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

1 more

I can’t believe I forgot Reggie Willits… so put him in place of the Figgins.

"This is a guy who is a combination of great courage and, nuts!"- Steve Physioc

by Brian S (brianguy) on Sep 17, 2009 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Holy Crap

Did you just respond to that piece as if it was a serious statistical analysis of the players in question? Point=missed. Sophomoric? Absolutely? Hilarious? The hilariousest. The word humorless comes to mind…

by blackoutyears on Sep 17, 2009 2:56 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Generally I'd agree

But this stuff transcended such concerns imo, and the opinions of several friends. The attack was more on the concept of scrappiness and nonsensical he plays real hard style analysis, not the true merits of the players on the list. So in that regard, it was completely correct. Unfortunately for you guys, Stephen Hawking doesn’t do a lot of stand-up.

by blackoutyears on Sep 18, 2009 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

are you intentionally cranking up the irony level?

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 18, 2009 2:29 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Irony

I’m not sure you know what the term means if you’re using it in this context. Your attack on the article is the equivalent of taking Billy Madison to task for not addressing the problems of our public education system. So which one of you guys is the real Mothers Basement?

by blackoutyears on Sep 18, 2009 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I suppose your answer is "yes," then, to the irony question

You don’t find calling out people for overemphasizing “facts” over “feel” in a discussion of Fire Joe Morgan ironic? And then calling them nerds (basically)?

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 18, 2009 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Irony

Is outlining all the great reasons not to write the piece, as you did, and then proceeding to write it anyway. I understand you’re doing very important work here; I know I’ll be telling my grandkids about Brett Gardner(‘s enormous head) and Nyj(g)er Morgan. You’re like a St. Bernard, but instead of liquor, the cask around your neck dispenses xFIP and UZR. Thank God you’re here to keep comedy honest. Please, tell me more about this double blind, peer-reviewed, ISO-certified humor I’m missing!

by blackoutyears on Sep 19, 2009 8:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He outlined why he wrote this article

He loves FJM, but if they are factually wrong, it takes away from all of the good stuff that they do. He wasn’t trying to “peer review” their work, he was trying to help them in a way.

And I suggest you stop trolling.

by vivaelpujols on Sep 19, 2009 8:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Trolling?

Nice. That’s swiftly becoming the internet equivalent of calling someone a racist to discredit their opinion. And to clarify, if FJM are wrong (subjective) then it takes away from his enjoyment, and apparently yours. I disagree that being factually wrong undermines the humor in any way, which is my subjective take. This article is the equivalent of someone who’s a little too into TLoTR telling you that the films blow because they cut out Tom Bombadil, or that a Star Trek joke doesn’t work because Vulcan’s don’t have a word for love. Anyway, I’m simply providing the same service for devil_fingers that he provided for FJM, to whit, telling him what’s wrong with his article. I’m helping him see that he looks like a humorless dork. Calling it trolling is pathetic. If you post on the critical hall of mirrors that is the internet don’t bitch about the responses. That’s the weakest sauce you can cook, believe me.

by blackoutyears on Sep 21, 2009 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Resist

Yeah, I agree with Junior’s underlying point that “scrappy” doesn’t make a player good or not. I also realize his main beef is with the writer of the post, not the players. I realize how silly and predictable it is for some blogger (me) to write a quasi-Fisking of another blog’s Fisking of another blog. Given that the intertubez are a lot like junior high, I also realize how stupid it is for me to “take on” a writer who is smarter than me, funnier than me, and (most of all) more popular than me. But I just can’t resist.

Yeah, neither can I. I guess we’re just weak.

by blackoutyears on Sep 21, 2009 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

okay all

Speaking just as a participant, not as a moderator (which I don’t think I am), I think we (myself included) take a deep breath and relax.

I don’t mind a spirited debate, but this seems more like it’s becoming a fight over a post I dashed off that was better in conception than execution

I’m sorry you didn’t enjoy it, blackoutyears, and i’m sorry for whatever contribution I made to the sour turn the discussion tool. Thanks for reading and commenting, though. Hopefully, i’ll write something in the future that you’ll read and enjoy. For now, we’ll just have to agree to disagree about whatever it is.

For the sake of Snakeskin Boots Colletti, if nothing else. Well, they and my crappy BlackBerry typing skills.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 21, 2009 1:23 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

"discussion took"

Stupid stubby fingers

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 21, 2009 1:26 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Actually

I almost always enjoy your contributions, d_f. But for the same reason that I don’t ask my college professors for their opinions on the ontological pertinence of Animal House, I don’t come to a baseball mechanics site expecting comedy autopsies. I applaud your willingness to cast oil on the waters. And if nothing else, your entry linked me to what is (at least for me) a very funny piece of writing.

by blackoutyears on Sep 22, 2009 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't exactly call this a Baseball Mechanics site

and I’m sure Kyle would agree. It’s basically a “write anything you think is interesting, which usually borders along scouting but can vary” type of site

by vivaelpujols on Sep 24, 2009 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

See a hair

split it. Anything else you’d care to parse? I’m all eyes.

by blackoutyears on Sep 28, 2009 6:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But sometimes Joe writes things that bug me (e.g., his bizarre apologies for Pete Rose) and I make smartass remarks about it and people think I “don’t like” Poz/JoPo.

Before (for the umpteenth plus time) you ascribe “apologies” for Pete Rose to Joe Posnanski, could you please put in the effort to research what Joe’s position on Pete Rose actually is? This is laziness, and that’s what I don’t like about it. You can be a smartass all you want and it won’t bother me, if you can make or point to a solid case that what you’re being a smartass about is real, not something you made up or misunderstood.

by 2X2L on Sep 18, 2009 6:31 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Hmm.... without going back through all the non-subtle hints in his blog

Maybe I’ve overdone it. I’ll tone it down since I like you and obviously it really offends you… but I would suggest re-reading the Pete Rose section of Posnanski’s piece in the THT 2009 Annual.

In the future, I’ll leave Posnanski out of it just get back to mentioning that Rose was a great player who gives little to no public evidence he’s a scumbad.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 18, 2009 7:24 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"scumbag"

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 18, 2009 7:24 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

no evidence that he's NOT a scumbag

typing while holding a baby fail

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 18, 2009 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I haven’t read the 2009 annual — which probably seems pretty odd given that I’m walking around with the pdf of the 2004 annual on my phone — but I’ll track one down and read up. So far, my impression of Posnanski’s interest in writing about Rose is that his motivations are just what they said they are — he wants his readers to be able to look past the mountains of scumbaggery and remember the player he was. In other words, the betting, the associations with lowlifes and petty criminals, the alibis etc. etc. are not his subject, and anything that brings attention back to them defeats his purpose. It would be self-defeating, in other words, to offer a justification for Rose’s behavior after his playing days, because that would nullify his attempts to portray the player.

by 2X2L on Sep 18, 2009 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In his own words

From His SI piece on Rose, ambiguously titled ‘It’s time to forgive Pete Rose for his sins against baseball’:

On the other side, though, there are people (and I’ve been guilty of this myself) who will come to Rose’s defense by either (a) downplaying what Pete Rose did or (b) degrading the feats of other great baseball characters with the “It ain’t like there are any angels in the Hall of Fame now” argument.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 18, 2009 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I forgot the money quote
I will come clean and say that I do think Pete Rose should be reinstated and he should be in the Hall of Fame.

Note that this isn’t just saying “He should be in the Hall, but not reinstated fully,” a position with which I have some sympathy (Rose is without a doubt a HoF-quality player). This says he should be reinstated.

Agree or disagree, Poz’s position is unamibuous, no?

At what point does my “research” become acceptable?

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 18, 2009 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, it’s unambiguous that Poz believes Rose should be inducted into the Hall of Fame. Regarding reinstatement, I think he argues for it as a necessary step toward that end, because he doesn’t see it as likely that eligibility for the Hall of Fame will ever be decoupled from eligibility for participation in professional baseball.

I think the money quote is this:

Pete Rose made a lot of people happy playing baseball. He inspired a lot of people to try harder. He cracked more hits than anyone who ever played the game.

and my reading of this piece is this: Poz’s stated motivation to write about Rose, as I mentioned above, was to allow us to recall the player he was, so I think what’s going on here is that after writing The Machine and no doubt meeting considerable resistance on this topic, he thinks he can’t achieve that end simply by providing a compelling picture of the player. He has found that he also must win attention to that picture it by alleviating the prevailing negative feelings toward the person. He’s tenacious, if nothing else, and if some nasty detoxification and fumigation work is necessary, well, he’s not one to shy away from it. But I think he does it as a necessary step, not as an end in itself, and to me this distinguishes him from genuine “Rose apologists” — the sort one encounters on Usenet, for example, who deny that anything Rose did was wrong.

Frankly, I find the paragraphs about the cardinality of Rose’s sins and the gradations of gambling painful to read. Silly and embarrassing. But perhaps Poz feels that that’s the mucking you have do to move the restoration project forward.

Is Poz telling us that Rose has been misjudged, or is he telling us that we’re too severe when we respond to the judgment, however fair, by nullifying the things that made Rose’s playing career enjoyable and inspiring? I think it’s clearly the latter: he doesn’t argue that ineligibility was inappropriate as much as he argues that with perpetual ineligibility we — the fans, the writers — will lose something valuable, worthy of recollection and even celebration.

My personal take: 1) Poz’s efforts to influence his current audience are precisely as doomed as he admits they are. 2) It’s all unnecessary. What made Rose enjoyable and inspiring as a player to many (as it happens, not to me personally) will be well remembered anyway; future baseball historians will wonder what all the fuss was about and will figure it out, with as much regard for Buster Olney’s and Mark Kriegel’s epithets as they deserve, whether or not Rose is inducted into the Hall. Folks will be able to accept that Rose was a great and inspirational ballplayer as well as a scumbag. Posthumously.

Finally, I don’t think you have to agree with my reading of all this to back away from labeling it as “bizarre”. I think it’s clear that Posanski genuinely mourns the loss of something and wishes to recover it. This isn’t bizarre. It’s human.

Disclaimer: I was a fan of Bud Harrelson back in the day, have hated Pete Rose and everyone who loves him since October 8, 1973.

by 2X2L on Sep 18, 2009 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ugh.

For a split second I thought the hand at the top of that picture was Rose’s, which would have been disgusting.

by JonBBT on Sep 19, 2009 1:36 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, even he

wouldn’t slide that hard.

What happens next: Pete lifts Bud Harrelson two feet off the ground by his collar and then throws him into the leftfield wall, all the way from second base. Rusty Staub then rolls up in the bullpen golf cart and says to Harrelson, “Come with me if you want to live.”

True story. Made a profound impact on me.

by 2X2L on Sep 19, 2009 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pretty sure Joe Morgan will recount it next broadcast.

"Of course Kolby Rasmus was going deep! That’s what Kolby Rasmus does! You don’t give Kolby Rasmus second chances!" -Kolby Rasmus

by hazel on Sep 19, 2009 8:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So, how close am I?

Just finished The Machine and enjoyed it very much, although I was dreading that Poz would eventually drive the narrative right into a ditch by flashing forward and plowing into an appeal to reinstate Pete Rose. (I, the reader, would be shouting “No no no” like Zimmer while Poz would be hearing “Go go go” like Doyle.)

Did it happen? Well, this is a sabermetric site, so here’s the straight dope: apologies rendered on behalf of Pete Rose in The Machine — 0. Pete’s allowed to voice his own perspective on his lifetime banishment in the last chapter, but that’s it.

In the Afterword, Poz explains his motivations for writing the book:

…it was a chance to write about baseball from my childhood… It was a chance to write about a year in America that, in memory, feels as faded and distant as the crackling color footage of the 1975 World Series.

…And mostly, for me, it was a chance (I hope) to resurrect a little bit of the Pete Rose as I remembered him from 1975. The story of Pete Rose’s fall has been written and rewritten so many times tha tI sometimes think America has forgotten the one-of-a-kind player who refused to sit out a single game during the 1975 season even though the Reds won the division championship by twenty games. I sometimes think that we lost the player who was so driven that he would get to the ballpark first, leave the ballpark first, and then go to the car in his driveway so he could listen to West Coast games. Nobody ever loved baseball more. Nobody ever gave baseball more. It doesn’t pardon Pete his sins, not at all, but it seems to me the man thrilled too many people and played too hard to be remembered only as the man who gambled on his team, was thrown into jail for tax evasion, and now spends his days singing autographs at a memorabilia shop at Caesars Palace in Las Vegas.

Pete Rose was my inspiration for this book, but so were Bench and Morgan and Ken Griffey and Gary Nolan and Jack Billingham and all the rest of them…

So, in the end, if you must believe that Poz is a Rose apologist, you have to admit he’s a lousy one. Writes a whole book about the 1975 Reds in which Rose is a central figure and never once makes a case for reinstating him.

While briefly covering the Red Sox history, he quotes Giamatti’s famous description of baseball, “It’s designed to break your heart”, and allows himself a very small amount of editorializing in mentioning, in a relative clause, that Giamatti “would, late in his life, have his own sad waltz with Pete Rose.” But, excepting brief mentions of that sort, he keeps a distance from all that and tells the story he wants to tell.

by 2X2L on Sep 20, 2009 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

sounds like an interesting read

Maybe i’ll be able to pick it up thos week.

As for Poz himself, the quote from his SI piece still stands.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 20, 2009 8:13 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

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